Author Topic: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15  (Read 8464 times)

redbeans2012

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Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« on: January 06, 2015, 06:20:13 PM »
I've been playing ever since the fork and I still think things are going alot better than before.

So far the spawn areas haven't been under seige and everyone has been allowed to mine around their spawn spots. (could change of course)

The "wira" group has taken over just about the whole center of the game I think.  (there was one other chinese group there, but they got kicked out and other attempts to overtake have failed).

Some thoughts.

1 I know I said it before but I still think Decay is not needed and is overkill.  If it was implamented then disaster and maybe even carrying capacity should be removed?  If disaster is implimented the way we have talked about it will discourage parking even more.

For example.  "Wira" has over 1000 generals out there just in yellow.  If a disaster would hit right now.  10000 + huc (actually alot more) would be distributed to others around the game and into the crown.  It would be very unprofitable to be that wreckless when disaster is handled our new way.  I really like disasters, just hated the way they are handled.  I know some might not agree with this, just my opinion.  Would love to hear counter arguments.

2  Back in this post when I first mentioned carrying capacity,

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,150.0.html

I also mentioned that less hearts in the center and more on the outskirts.  This still crosses my mind all the time when I'm playing.  If you tie up the center you can really lay siege to the rest of the game easily with all the hearts that you collect.  Here are some examples, this was right before last disaster.  If you are in the middle, you are making alot of coins, you should pay for your guards in my opinion.





Once you get the middle you get a never ending number of guards for free.  You would have to take a big risk just to break some of these lines so noone does it.  If they die, the other guy really loses nothing of value.   



3 Browser based HUC game is necessary.  Brought it up yesterday.  BGB seems to be open to at least trying it thankfully.

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,583.0.html

4  I seemed to have missed this guys ideas cause I was burned out after last fork discussion.

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,181.105.html 

I think some of those ideas can be elaborated upon.  I really like the idea of speeding up guys.  Not sure I agree with paying for it though since the guy with the most money would always win out. 

Is it possible to change players to move max 2 or 3 (or 5!) spaces per block instead of just 1 by default?  It would speed up the game alot and would create alot more action.  One of the main reasons none of us long time players really challenge the people in the center is because we have lives (and kids) and it takes 6 to 8 hours of planning just to get there.  What if I could get to the center from spawn within an hour?  I realize that block times can't be messed with but the amount of spaces one can move can right?

This could be strange when trying to fight others though, I guess.

5 (Little further out) I brought up somehow creating an in game difficulty not long ago and would still like that discussed more (but maybe for later time).  My idea was here but of course just a basic brainstorm.  Eventually carrying capacity and cost of general should be self regulating in my opinion.

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,192.0.html 

Ok thats it for now, just keeping things alive here.  Feel free to add what you think!

Edit to add: I'm not saying all this should be in next fork, i was just rambling sorry.  I personally think the way disaster coins are handled should be priority in next fork.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 08:00:46 PM by redbeans2012 »

BGB

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Re: New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2015, 07:39:57 PM »
Based on previous discussions in the last fork topic, I think this is what we were thinking about for the next changes.

1) Coins Inside Crown
2) Disaster Modifications

Coins Inside Crown
The reasoning behind this change is to promote more game play with the crown by eliminating crown recycling and forcing the crown to be banked to receive its value. This modification includes:
  • Coins that are generated via the crown are stored "inside" it:
    • .25 per block
    • coins picked up by the character holding the crown (unlimited capacity)
  • Crown must be banked in order to receive its value

We also considered some of these topics:
  • Hiding crown after disaster
  • Crown holder dies immediately after disaster
  • Increasing the number of locations crown can appear on the map

While I was typing this up, I had a thought about the banking process of the crown. What if the crown could only be banked in an opposing color area? This would eliminate the items of hiding the crown and killing the crown holder at disaster, along with some other issues that have been brought up prior. Of course the question is, would the crown ever be bankable? It could generate some great battles when the crown value became very valuable say 100,000 HUC or more. So some bullets surrounding this idea:
  • Crown can only be banked in opposing color
  • Crown would reset anywhere on the map like a heart
  • Eliminate the lost coins and have it always increasing in value
  • Keep in mind the crown's unlimited capacity and disaster coins get deposited increasing value more rapidly

Disaster Modifications
We still have a few items to discuss about this modification. The purpose behind this change is to reduce the recycling effect the disaster is creating for dominating players. This increases the risk of having hundreds to thousands of players in the game. At the time of disaster, coins are placed into a special disaster pool and the crown. This change is more complex as it sounds due to these items that we were still debating:

  • What decides which coins go into the pool?
    • Can coins left from player deaths (poison, self destruct, kill) be put into the pool during the 50 blocks of poison? Miners still get their fee of course.
    • Should all coins left on the map be placed into the pool to further discourage camping?
  • What is the split of coins to pool? (60 pool/40 crown)
  • Should hearts be eliminated from the map at disaster time?
  • What is the denomination and frequency of coins randomly generated on the map from the disaster pool? 100HUC/100 block? 50HUC/50 block?

I am sure i missed a couple items, so please continue the discussion...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 07:42:52 PM by BGB »

redbeans2012

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 05:10:08 PM »
I like the banking of crown in opposing spawn area idea.  I am not sure if it would be too hard or not, but the other way might be too easy.  Probably better to have it really hard instead of the other way around.  A crown in constant motion would be great.  In this instance the crown would not need to be hidden after disaster and could probably spawn just about anywhere on the map.

I like the idea of coins and hearts everywhere being scooped up after disaster.  If you notice, before disaster, people in the center start farming hearts to be picked up after disaster.  It keeps them from being lazy, letting coin spawns build up also.

I'm not sure its a good idea to put an actual amount onto the denomination of coins randomly dropped after disaster.  Maybe its a better idea to calculate how many coins were picked up after disaster then divide that number up a certain way.


Anyone else? is it only BGB and I left? lol.  Domob are you still with us?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 05:12:28 PM by redbeans2012 »

BGB

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 06:40:57 PM »
I'm not sure its a good idea to put an actual amount onto the denomination of coins randomly dropped after disaster.  Maybe its a better idea to calculate how many coins were picked up after disaster then divide that number up a certain way.

I am not to concerned about the amount, but I think they should be a set interval (like hearts) so the human knows when they are coming. If they are dropped more random, bots might have an advantage cause they will always be looking for them.

Anyone else? is it only BGB and I left? lol.  Domob are you still with us?

Bueller? Bueller?


Snailbrain

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 11:44:14 AM »
don't know why keep saying things like "is there only me and x left" lol

how many times do we need to go over this? :) it doesn't help...

Domob has been extremely busy with the Namecoin Rebase, which he has now mostly completed and is live. and he now has sporadic internet access for a couple of days.

I haven't responded to this thread because i have not had time to go through it properly.. I will do soon.

Snailbrain

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 12:22:27 AM »
Quote
1) Coins Inside Crown
2) Disaster Modifications

This --

after some more thinking -- I think the coins inside the crown, may just be an easy way for the people that can control "many" to get coins even more easier than now.
So i think other stuff may need implementing first?

I know i've mentioned it before.. but.. what about life expectancy for simple-ness. It should be easy for domob to implement as it sort of just putting back namecoin name expiry (almost).
That's if we think decay is a bit overkill for now.

If life expectancy only gives enough life to get to the furthest points and back without hanging around then wouldn't this help?
It would also make hearts in the central areas a bit less useful -- although they will start building up and up.

I can't remember the disadvantages atm, but i think there were some.

edit: maybe max carry limit would need to be increased though ..

Maybe another "item" which increases life expectancy by 500 which is a very rare spawn , should spawn at the far reaches... but so rare that it's not worth camping the areas for, because your hunters will just die of old age waiting
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 12:43:19 AM by Snailbrain »

redbeans2012

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 01:58:32 AM »
what about life expectancy for simple-ness -


I just dont see the point of it really.  Camping really isn't as bad as it was before and it would be even less if those dropped coins were not able to be picked up by teh same people after disaster.

Also I think it would cause problems because if there are alot of people trying to get coins you might not recoup your initial 10 huc investment and die, even if they are really trying.  The initial price for a general would constantly need to be adjusted I would think.  I think there are some unintended consequences that I haven't thought of yet too.

I think maybe having a life expectancy for hunters might be a smart idea though since they are used to clog up the board alot without any risk to the player. (as posted above)

-----

As far as the crown I'm not really sure what you mean.  At least they would have to bank it and at least it could respawn in another area so others have a shot at it.  The people with "many" now have it super easy at the moment.

Although if its too much for one fork i understand.  The disaster coins not being dropped is the other missing puzzle piece though to make the game alot better in my opinion.

Spread dem coins out!

 8)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:12:51 AM by redbeans2012 »

Snailbrain

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 04:24:04 AM »
the problem is people who create 500++ characters and dominate the map.

If we put many of the coins in the crown as it stands, it just makes the job easier for them imo. They will just head for the crown with 500 characters and get it.. easier than looting coins. So although i originally thought it would make the game more fun, i don't think it will help so much with how the game currently is..
maybe i'm wrong - i suppose we will see some army fights - . and it will be fun to watch.. at first.

Quote
Camping really isn't as bad
There is still loads of campers -but it has improved (i think to early to say) - it's not enough though.

The standing around needs to be dealt with, by either something like decay like mithrilman suggested, or just plane and simple expiry. With Expiry the "major player" will need to be constantly moving and run with less characters or at least the same amount moving.
They have to constantly move now, but they can still hang around to.. the problem now is there is too little coins to steal from the caravan/trains.

It needs to be more playable with less players and focus on pvp in someway (to make it more complex).

Tthere needs to be more risk when controlling more players - as was the original disaster plan.. this worked (reduced map from 50k hunters down to what we have now) but was not enough.

Also - the Carrying capacity at such a low amount as it is now, i think (will) favour those that have the ability to control many (think i said that once before).. Short life + more carrying capacity, means more loot to steal, more movement and i think less people on the map.

Cryptos are so low atm, which lowers even more Huntercoins value, that i think we should try some drastic changes while we have this opportunity.

imo - easy change :

Expiry (short duration - enough to get to furthest point of the map and back.. far areas will probably build up, coins will be constantly flowing from the central areas, giving new players opportunities to kill the "trains".. it will be impossible to camp central areas.. but possible to camp and keep bringing reinforcements to the side exits, could be some way to prevent this?
Increase Carrying Capacity Limit to 100 or 200 or more.

to add a bit of complexity:
We could add traps
or
generals which cost 100 hucs which can carry 2000 coins, and destroy a 9 x 9 area.. something like that

--

Putting coins in Crown as suggested should be done, but think of something else which discourages getting it with 500 players.. e.g. when you pick it up it teleports you to random location (you might be lucky or very unlucky) ... or the holder destroys anyone of the same colour who comes within 5 squares (not serious about those ideas, but the last one would be interesting.. if you think about it).

it's late, so maybe i'll change my mind on everyhting i said above tomorrow...

note: we should also add the 1 step name creation to the QT.

redbeans2012

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 06:28:48 AM »
I typed a big long thing then erased it.  I will sleep on the expiry idea.  But I do stand by what i said in the last post.

What if i'm just an average guy that wants to mine some coins without trying to kill.  Will I be able to recoup my original 10 Huc investment before I die?

I've been mining with a bot all day in a green spawn area and have only gotten about 2 HUC (and there are only a few of us mining there).  I'd be dead soon if expiry was added and I'd be in the red.

Personally I like the new flow of the game.  Previously all but one spawn was under seige at all times.  Carrying capacity limits changed that. The only reason there are campers is because they can go get their dropped coins after disaster unchallenged.

Attacking the caravans isn't as easy as you think.  They are always watching for the most part.  Which is something you really can't help or fight against.

Oh well going to bed.  I'd like to hear BGB or Mithril input. 




Snailbrain

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 03:51:40 PM »
I typed a big long thing then erased it.  I will sleep on the expiry idea.  But I do stand by what i said in the last post.

What if i'm just an average guy that wants to mine some coins without trying to kill.  Will I be able to recoup my original 10 Huc investment before I die?

I've been mining with a bot all day in a green spawn area and have only gotten about 2 HUC (and there are only a few of us mining there).  I'd be dead soon if expiry was added and I'd be in the red.

Personally I like the new flow of the game.  Previously all but one spawn was under seige at all times.  Carrying capacity limits changed that. The only reason there are campers is because they can go get their dropped coins after disaster unchallenged.

Attacking the caravans isn't as easy as you think.  They are always watching for the most part.  Which is something you really can't help or fight against.

Oh well going to bed.  I'd like to hear BGB or Mithril input.

that's the point, getting 2 hucs is because someone else is getting 99% of the coins.. not even worth turning your PC on for.. it's also no fun the way you are playing.
Fun = PvP or other ways which involve skill and thought, and not just leaving your computer on doing stuff for you automatically none stop.

the coins need to be more evenly distributed.
It needs to be harder for those who can control many... or you need to be able to steal those type of hunters coins more easily.
It's practically impossible to get the central coins due to the campers and those controlling millions..

basically we need to make it harder and more expensive for people who control hundreds who dominate the game without making it harder for those who may control a lot less. Disaster did it to a degree, but not enough.

haven't reread what i wrote previously yet though..

Snailbrain

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 04:08:53 PM »
i also think the max limit of carrying coins - as stated previously, is not enough.
All it does it help those who can control many.

If you are a normal player you could at least steal big groups of peoples coins at the side exits.
Now the risk and reward is not enough.

I think -

Life Expectancy + Carry More coins.

Making it so people going to the far reaches of the map are coming back with 200 or more coins, or 1000s.. (increase max limit)
yet, also make sure they are not controlling thousands of players (life expectancy)

possible something flawed here with that idea.. also i think i said in my other post - we would need to think about the side exits, as they could easily be guarded.

--
Edit:
note: overall i think the game map does look a lot better since the fork.
I also think the map needs changing.. and if anyone can create a better one then great - otherwise we should maybe think a bit more about generating a map at every disaster.
i think the map has improved some what, not so much because of the update, but because people are giving up due to low crypto values (especially huntercoin)??
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 04:21:43 PM by Snailbrain »

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 04:53:10 PM »
do we need more entrances/exits to the centre?


or one way teleporter from near spawn to the furthest parts in the centre.. this probably has major issues that i've not though of - e.g. will help disaster rushers



with life expectancy - would we be able to disable disaster..

« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 04:58:31 PM by Snailbrain »

redbeans2012

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 05:10:33 PM »
I typed a big long thing then erased it.  I will sleep on the expiry idea.  But I do stand by what i said in the last post.

What if i'm just an average guy that wants to mine some coins without trying to kill.  Will I be able to recoup my original 10 Huc investment before I die?

I've been mining with a bot all day in a green spawn area and have only gotten about 2 HUC (and there are only a few of us mining there).  I'd be dead soon if expiry was added and I'd be in the red.

Personally I like the new flow of the game.  Previously all but one spawn was under seige at all times.  Carrying capacity limits changed that. The only reason there are campers is because they can go get their dropped coins after disaster unchallenged.

Attacking the caravans isn't as easy as you think.  They are always watching for the most part.  Which is something you really can't help or fight against.

Oh well going to bed.  I'd like to hear BGB or Mithril input.

that's the point, getting 2 hucs is because someone else is getting 99% of the coins.. not even worth turning your PC on for.. it's also no fun the way you are playing.
Fun = PvP or other ways which involve skill and thought, and not just leaving your computer on doing stuff for you automatically none stop.

the coins need to be more evenly distributed.
It needs to be harder for those who can control many... or you need to be able to steal those type of hunters coins more easily.
It's practically impossible to get the central coins due to the campers and those controlling millions..

basically we need to make it harder and more expensive for people who control hundreds who dominate the game without making it harder for those who may control a lot less. Disaster did it to a degree, but not enough.

haven't reread what i wrote previously yet though..

I still think we will run into some unintended problems.  The initial cost of creating a general would constantly need to change in my opinion or you would be limiting the game to a set amount of people since there's only a set amount of coins that are created per day right?  I do like the idea of hunters having an expectency though.

basically we need to make it harder and more expensive for people who control hundreds who dominate the game without making it harder for those who may control a lot less. Disaster did it to a degree, but not enough.

As I keep saying, the only reason these guys park so many is because they are always there first after disaster to pick up their coins.  If disaster struck now and all of their coins were spread out to the spawn areas around the game for everyone to have, they would limit their generals  I've been saying for months that the way coins are handled at disaster is one of the main problems in the game. 

i think the map has improved some what, not so much because of the update,

Have to disagree here.   The changes were instant after the fork, I believe one group quit and one group has come back.  The one group that quit was controlling some of the center.  They would be gone most of the day and would send a couple of their guys every once in a while to mine 1000 HUC's send them home to the wallet and going AFK again.  With carrying capacity its not that easy so they quit.

Oh well I dont know, would love other people's opinion.


redbeans2012

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 05:20:52 PM »
do we need more entrances/exits to the centre?


or one way teleporter from near spawn to the furthest parts in the centre.. this probably has major issues that i've not though of - e.g. will help disaster rushers



with life expectancy - would we be able to disable disaster..

Thats an interesting idea, I think I like it initially.

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Re: Thoughts and New Fork Talk Discussion 1-6-15
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 09:48:06 PM »
A lot of good ideas being thrown around here. I like the idea of expiracy of hunters.

One issue that everyone faces is time it takes to get from A to B. Could the be speed up by halving block time and reward, would be the same payout over time but twice the amount of blocks.
It is a short amount of time for someone with many of player to make many of moves, but would reduce the time to get to B from A.