Author Topic: - What I would do -  (Read 8599 times)

Snailbrain

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- What I would do -
« on: January 30, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
INCREASE GENERAL COST SIGNIFICANTLY + CARRYING CAPACITY

no matter what little addons  we do, the dominating player controlling many will still dominate as long as the cost to play is low.

Change Primary Focus of the Game into PvP - see these 2 posts http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,712.msg2704.html#msg2704

To limit the people controlling many and change the Focus of the game onto PvP, the cost per General I believe needs to be increased significantly -
1. This will give them higher risk and lower the amount of hunters they control on the map, increasing human to bot(big player) ratio.
2. Make PvP worthwhile and inturn making the game more playable.

Due to this change we would also need to increase carrying capacity limit, imo it can be as big as we want.. as if the general cost reaches a certain point, it will not be profitable to control too many unless those "bots" are PvP/combat orientated- so once that limit has been reached the carrying capacity can increase exponentially. In turn this will favour pvp even more.

I'd also add auto destruct in as well.. although i think it's probably a "little bit" less required.. as most people probably aren't going to be leaving high cost generals unattended (as much).
and as MM put it, the feints etc may come in handy if there are automated attack bots around.

Also for now (unless you find it interesting) ignore my following posts about life expectancy.

For Now - i'd add these changes.

1. Auto Destruct - Make Toggle-able - this removes the advantage of auto destructing bots, allows better semi afk play (change player mindsets for blockades and other things). You could say -- this will favour bots, they could camp the map - well that's possible now if they wanted.
2. Add Life Expectancy - + Add or make hearts extend life. not certain about lifespan - as teleport may effect what number is should be. This will Reduce static players, afk players, and make harder to blockade.
3. Increase Carrying Capacity - due to life expectancy - less blockers etc, hunters will be more precious, carry more amount of coins, and players can steal more amount of coins.
4. Coins on the Map and coins on players (including player cost) go inside 1 or 2 crowns. - Still need to think about whether they need to bank in opposite colour, or a moving crown bank. I personally don't think sprinking them on the map over the next few days will improve anything, especially when 13k coins spawn on the map each day normally. Of course the idea was to remove them from the map to limit Disaster Rush Advantage.
5. Teleport - not sure where yet.

i'll add more when i think... p.s. they are just suggestions :)

Edited
6. Instead of Life Expectancy - Increase General cost to 250 to 1000



---I won't have as much time as yesterday and today for the next couple of weeks. vacation.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:21:02 AM by Snailbrain »

redbeans2012

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 05:27:38 PM »
1.  Auto destruct is great but should be optional.  If thats what you mean by toggleable then yes I agree

2.  I have not been sold on this idea.  Not sure if the others that play have either.  I see way too many downsides.  I will probably not even play anymore cause I'd probably lose money.

3.  If life expectency is implimented then yes carrying capacity should rise.  As of now its actually a plus for the game, as the players have told you.

4.  The main reason we talked about coins being dropped on the map is because it gives people a chance to recoup their investment if they are unluckily caught in a disaster.  IE.  A new guy is very excited to join huntercoin, buys himself some coins and creates some generals generals.. after a day, disaster strikes, all his coins are taken and thrown into the crown which he'll probably never get.  He will probably be pretty angry.

5.  Teleport for sure.

No matter what you do, the players with the most time will dominate the game.  The focus should be on making the game faster for the average joe.   Teleports are a good start.

I think we should work with what we have and tweak it.  I guarantee just saying "fuck it" and totally reworking the game will give you some same unintended consequences.

MM has some good ideas about making the game funner. 

6. The price is ridiculously low and nothing gets peoples attention more than price, what if a small amount of scooped up coins 1000? get sent to a burn address each disaster.   Just to counteract some of the inflation we have.   Might not do much, but at least its something :).  Just a thought.

I sound like a broken record and actually feel weird for disagreeing with the games creator so I will let BGB and MM take it from here on out.

 ;D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 05:34:07 PM by redbeans2012 »

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 10:55:04 AM »
1.  Auto destruct is great but should be optional.  If thats what you mean by toggleable then yes I agree

2.  I have not been sold on this idea.  Not sure if the others that play have either.  I see way too many downsides.  I will probably not even play anymore cause I'd probably lose money.

3.  If life expectency is implimented then yes carrying capacity should rise.  As of now its actually a plus for the game, as the players have told you.

4.  The main reason we talked about coins being dropped on the map is because it gives people a chance to recoup their investment if they are unluckily caught in a disaster.  IE.  A new guy is very excited to join huntercoin, buys himself some coins and creates some generals generals.. after a day, disaster strikes, all his coins are taken and thrown into the crown which he'll probably never get.  He will probably be pretty angry.

5.  Teleport for sure.

No matter what you do, the players with the most time will dominate the game.  The focus should be on making the game faster for the average joe.   Teleports are a good start.

I think we should work with what we have and tweak it.  I guarantee just saying "fuck it" and totally reworking the game will give you some same unintended consequences.

MM has some good ideas about making the game funner. 

6. The price is ridiculously low and nothing gets peoples attention more than price, what if a small amount of scooped up coins 1000? get sent to a burn address each disaster.   Just to counteract some of the inflation we have.   Might not do much, but at least its something :).  Just a thought.

I sound like a broken record and actually feel weird for disagreeing with the games creator so I will let BGB and MM take it from here on out.

 ;D

2. No one plays :) and it's not a risk (random risk).. and everyone else has the same problem. i think your point here is invalid.
3. which players?? you (controlling 5 hunters) and BGB (controlling 300 hunters :D )
4. a general who gets killed at disaster will feel happy because the coins are sprinkled on the map???? it will be negligible. again. 13k coins spawn on the map anyway, sprinkling another 13k on the map over a few days wil be like it never even happened.

I think you are not thinking properly with your answers and probably don't understand gaming or mechanics, sorry if that sounds offensive.

p.s. trolling is not allowed on the forum :)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:56:48 AM by Snailbrain »

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 12:39:03 PM »
i'm afraid the huntercoin community is now to small, It is on the brink of death.

If you want to keep it going, without 1 or 2 guys getting all the coins for another year.. (assuming people keep mining)

This is what you need to stop:



If people live forever (or until disaster) this will always happen. If you can think of something other than life expectancy, then say so.
with life expectancy, each Hunter will be more valuaeable and precious..
A problem with the game now is there is practically no point in PvP - why spend a day pvping to get 100 coins? This is why, if you add life expectancy you can then also increase carrying capacity which will in-turn makes PvP more worthwhile.

There needs to be something to aim for and be excited about (Crown and PvP) - auto mining with no pvp and getting almost zero coins is pointless except for those microscopic amount of players which are already doing so (there isn't enough for more players to get those outside peanuts). Of course that would still be going on.

People need to get straight into the action (teleporter) - but without giving a more bigger advantage to the dominator (if that is possible). -- (random thought - teleporter could appear randomly at different colours bases... so one minute it's at red base, then randomily it may move to green base (and also in a sort of randomish location in those areas too)-- not thought about it properly)

AutoDestruct - changes gameplay and allows humans to attack / pvp more easily.. even if they are not at keyboard.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 01:54:56 PM by Snailbrain »

BGB

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 03:19:12 PM »
1. This is something I think that just needs to be tried to see how it works out in real game play. I do think it should be optional though.

2. Life expectancy makes a lot of sense at the surface. But I think it starts to break down when you look at players being able to recoup their investment or not. But the big players and bot masters, it is just another thing to allow for. For bots, I would address this by keeping an eye on remaining life and the creating new characters recycle with. I already do this partially by watching for the next mandatory disaster and returning to base for poison death. For the blockades I would probably just send a fresh batch of players timed to arrive before they died to recycle and keep the blockade going.

3. Maybe raising cc to 50/100?

4. It is also about the little guy possibly getting some of the big guy's coins. If I have 1000 guards at disaster, then the little guy will get some of those.

5. Teleport:  Is it any easier to carve out some paths in the trees and make them only passable by one color?

Going to repeat myself again from an earlier post nobody has given any comment about and Mithril also made it a point. Why not just do all of these things and randomly set them at disaster? This way the game isn't committed to any certain style and things can be "tested" without any long term affect. At some point a parameter could be accepted and hard set. Looking at the new stuff here are possible parameters:

1) No destruct to larger destruct area which at times will favor the gatherer and other times favor attacking/pvp. Generals have the range of 4 to -1 destruct range, while hearted chars keep being 1 less. Players will always have the ability to self destruct, but there might be a large range or no range of death.

2) Carrying capacity: 25/50, 50,100, 100/200, 200,400

3) Map changes: new paths in trees making map shorter or teleport locations

4) Coin value locations: You could change the location of higher value coins

5) Life expectency, unlimited, 1000, 2000, 4000 blocks

6) Auto destruct on/off/optional

7) Startup characters (zero to 5 weighted mostly towards zero).

8) Have crown reset anywhere on the map instead of just known center locations.

I am sure there are more things. Some randomness like this means bots and the big players aren't relying on the same ole same ole thing every time. The scripts that have been running for months aren't any longer necessarily valid. You might actually have to look at the game to see what is going on.







redbeans2012

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »
I think you are not thinking properly with your answers and probably don't understand gaming or mechanics, sorry if that sounds offensive.

I find this statement pretty ironic since its your view of gaming mechanics that have pretty much gotten us to this point.  ;D

The remaining players that try to make the game playable while you disappear are insulted.

Now you say you will probably not really be around for another few weeks.   :o

I'm done playing.  So now you have like 4 people playing and good luck getting on the ground advice from the chinese people.  ::)



« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:35:06 PM by redbeans2012 »

wiggi

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 07:01:23 PM »

5. Teleport:  Is it any easier to carve out some paths in the trees and make them only passable by one color?

Going to repeat myself again from an earlier post nobody has given any comment about and Mithril also made it a point. Why not just do all of these things and randomly set them at disaster? This way the game isn't committed to any certain style and things can be "tested" without any long term affect. At some point a parameter could be accepted and hard set. Looking at the new stuff here are possible parameters:


Sounds like a plan. Also randomize the type (for all colors/ only for one color, 1way/2way) and how many (5...15 perhaps) and see what happens.

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 07:34:59 PM »
I think you are not thinking properly with your answers and probably don't understand gaming or mechanics, sorry if that sounds offensive.

I find this statement pretty ironic since its your view of gaming mechanics that have pretty much gotten us to this point.  ;D

The remaining players that try to make the game playable while you disappear are insulted.

Now you say you will probably not really be around for another few weeks.   :o

I'm done playing.  So now you have like 4 people playing and good luck getting on the ground advice from the chinese people.  ::)

The game mechanics are pretty much unchanged since release - the proof of concept was an experiment to test the possibilities for Chronokings.
I'm back to work tomorrow, working on a busy project, then on vacation..

and I'm sorry you are leaving, but in a way, i'm a bit glad, as I find you more of a troll than a player or contributor atm. And huntercoin doesn't need Trolls. It needs ideas, changes and contributors..

1. This is something I think that just needs to be tried to see how it works out in real game play. I do think it should be optional though.

2. Life expectancy makes a lot of sense at the surface. But I think it starts to break down when you look at players being able to recoup their investment or not. But the big players and bot masters, it is just another thing to allow for. For bots, I would address this by keeping an eye on remaining life and the creating new characters recycle with. I already do this partially by watching for the next mandatory disaster and returning to base for poison death. For the blockades I would probably just send a fresh batch of players timed to arrive before they died to recycle and keep the blockade going.

3. Maybe raising cc to 50/100?

4. It is also about the little guy possibly getting some of the big guy's coins. If I have 1000 guards at disaster, then the little guy will get some of those.

5. Teleport:  Is it any easier to carve out some paths in the trees and make them only passable by one color?

Going to repeat myself again from an earlier post nobody has given any comment about and Mithril also made it a point. Why not just do all of these things and randomly set them at disaster? This way the game isn't committed to any certain style and things can be "tested" without any long term affect. At some point a parameter could be accepted and hard set. Looking at the new stuff here are possible parameters:

1) No destruct to larger destruct area which at times will favor the gatherer and other times favor attacking/pvp. Generals have the range of 4 to -1 destruct range, while hearted chars keep being 1 less. Players will always have the ability to self destruct, but there might be a large range or no range of death.

2) Carrying capacity: 25/50, 50,100, 100/200, 200,400

3) Map changes: new paths in trees making map shorter or teleport locations

4) Coin value locations: You could change the location of higher value coins

5) Life expectency, unlimited, 1000, 2000, 4000 blocks

6) Auto destruct on/off/optional

7) Startup characters (zero to 5 weighted mostly towards zero).

8) Have crown reset anywhere on the map instead of just known center locations.

I am sure there are more things. Some randomness like this means bots and the big players aren't relying on the same ole same ole thing every time. The scripts that have been running for months aren't any longer necessarily valid. You might actually have to look at the game to see what is going on.


thanks for the real comments and thoughts.

with your comment about Autoattack and think it just needs to be tried.. i agree, and in all honesty - every suggestion I have said, I in no way guarantee that will fix all or any issues, and I think we should just try. As atm, Huntercoin is pretty much nothing.

The market cap is so low that we should just try anything and everything - it's onlmost worth saying "scrap it, and take what we have learnt and start a fresh game, now knowing that gaming is fully possible". If we did this, there would probably be no one who would complain except MM who has spent a lot of time on his client, BGB who has worked hard getting coins, and wirra..

Imo - if we want to keep it going, we need big changes. If they don't work, try something else. There are no players to scare off and no investors are going to lose anything due to the current value.

1. For Auto Attack - Toggle-able (on/off) - i'm sure will help. (I think even permanent on, to keep colours separated (tbh, i originally envisioned it being colours vs colours) - but as everyone is against the idea, i'd settle for "on/off")

2. Life Expectancy - yep i thought this about recycling for the blockade at the edges of the map - but if the life expectancy is quite low, only the side entrances would be able to be "blocked" like this. And i think it would sort of be more trouble than it's worth for you to keep creating new players in all 4 corners, sending them to the sides, by the time they get there you would need to then start sending the next load. Eventually they would also build up the amount of coins they have on them- making them more of a target -  (unless you also sent out some collectors as well) - i think it will then start to get a bit complicated and hard work. One wrong move or computer issue or "broke wallet" (ha), ruins the whole process. Having to keep moving instead of jsut stood still i think is better than infinite life and not moving.
I think it does need thinking about more thoroughly - and it would need to be a value based on teleporters or whatever.
as for recouping the cost - this would need to be balanced properly and if this means the bots have to play with less characters to make a profit, then i think this is good, as we are further decreasing bot to human ratio .. (p.s. i keep saying bot, but you know what i mean). Also - it should balance anyway.

3. i was thinking more that if life expectancy is something like 500, then increase CC to something large --- as the only people who would make it to the far coins and back would be the ones who collect hearts... of course needs more thinking.

4. i'm not sure about this one, or maybe i misunderstand. If the coins are sprinkled on the map, then the big guy controlling 90% of the map is still going to get 90% of those coins. Of course, this is always the case.

5. Not sure - if we want them to get somewhere faster it might not be that effective. I'm also thinking about random placement of teleports and also random exits for teleporters. This should at least complicate things for automated bots.

Random Parameters - would be good. Probably we would need to do a lot of stuff in stages anyway - and they could be fixed at first.
Randomness is defintely a way to combat botting - but only until they adapt.
I still think the best way to combat things like that is to put them in direct head to head PvP - in some way.




Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 08:09:12 PM »
about collecting hearts for life expectancy -- this would need a lot of thought, need to think about "big players" just creating lots of character for the purpose of getting hearts.

off topic random thought:
the one way paths for certain colours BGB mentioned: Made me think of a teleporter or path, in which it only lets 1 hunter through every so often (instead of hearts increasing life?). It should also not be cost effective to have 50 people waiting to go through (die of old age?) - not thought about it thoroughly - but maybe there is some idea/balance to be had here.

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 08:21:06 PM »
One of the original ideas -
An NPC (or multiple) which randomly paths around the map. It could walk 5 squares at a time and kill anything in an X square radius.

If there was multiple, and they get ni range, something could happen like a mini disaster, they multiply or spawn a load of hearts..
An NPC can also be a buffer bot - so if you get in range you gain life expectancy or become invulnerable for x blocks or something like that.

a thing to worry about here and anyhthing random - is hardware miners skipping blocks to have the NPC go where they want..

of course in a proper scenareo, there would be enough hardware miners to make this not possible.. because if they skip a block then another miner might mine it instead.

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 08:55:24 PM »
Instead of Life Expectancy to fix some issues - this would be an even more dramatic change:

General Cost = 1000 + Infinite Life. -- edit: 250-1000 --- I actually thought 10 was to low myself (i think i suggested 50 or 100) -
the cost per general could decrease based on how many active "real" players there are (manually with hard fork).

This will reduce campers and hunters on the map. Also of course, carrying capacity would have to be massive.

This would probably solve a lot of issues, prevent bot masters controlling many, make the game more personal and lower the bot to human ratio considerbly.

The more i think about this, the more i think it is better than life expectancy.

Edit: Recycling could be an issue - but at least PvP would be worth it - and very high risk to control many many hunters

It's also a very easy change

Edit 2: will think more about it for now
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 10:52:21 PM by Snailbrain »

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 10:18:13 AM »
I slept on it :)
I feel like such an idiot...
it was discussed so many times..
I'd ignore every suggestion i've said in this thread (for now) ... except still do something with the crown.

the answer is just increase the general cost... IMO

i'd say 250 to 1000 as i said last night ---- but if want to go slowly or worried - i'd start with 100 - but i think it shoudl be more to make PvP worthwhile. The harvest fields around the edges would be an after thought until they build up enough to be profitable/economical to mine. PvP will be +1

not sure where all the other posts are in this thread, or maybe it was discussed in some other thread..
http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,109.0.html

edit: here is other discussion
http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php?topic=96.0

i think it was wiggis' comment about variable cost for general which made me realize/remember/rethink

here is more discussion (from a while back)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=435170.msg7018424#msg7018424
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 11:44:52 AM by Snailbrain »

reaper

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 02:49:56 PM »
One of the original ideas -
An NPC (or multiple) which randomly paths around the map. It could walk 5 squares at a time and kill anything in an X square radius.

If there was multiple, and they get ni range, something could happen like a mini disaster, they multiply or spawn a load of hearts..
An NPC can also be a buffer bot - so if you get in range you gain life expectancy or become invulnerable for x blocks or something like that.

a thing to worry about here and anyhthing random - is hardware miners skipping blocks to have the NPC go where they want..

of course in a proper scenareo, there would be enough hardware miners to make this not possible.. because if they skip a block then another miner might mine it instead.

NPC i think would be a great addition. Maybe here is something to do with the dropped disaster coins.
Or would this turn into bot wars. May not be good for new players IDK.
Adding transporters/portals is a must IMO. Speed from x to y needs to be improved in some way.


The market cap is so low that we should just try anything and everything - it's onlmost worth saying "scrap it, and take what we have learnt and start a fresh game, now knowing that gaming is fully possible". If we did this, there would probably be no one who would complain except MM who has spent a lot of time on his client, BGB who has worked hard getting coins, and wirra..

Huntercoin 2.0 lol
The guys that control 75% of game would also hurt. My theory is they are like big whales on exchanges. Get most of coin cheap as possible then pump and dump.
If game becomes popular again or pump by them makes it popular again.

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2015, 03:07:02 PM »
One of the original ideas -
An NPC (or multiple) which randomly paths around the map. It could walk 5 squares at a time and kill anything in an X square radius.

If there was multiple, and they get ni range, something could happen like a mini disaster, they multiply or spawn a load of hearts..
An NPC can also be a buffer bot - so if you get in range you gain life expectancy or become invulnerable for x blocks or something like that.

a thing to worry about here and anyhthing random - is hardware miners skipping blocks to have the NPC go where they want..

of course in a proper scenareo, there would be enough hardware miners to make this not possible.. because if they skip a block then another miner might mine it instead.

NPC i think would be a great addition. Maybe here is something to do with the dropped disaster coins.
Or would this turn into bot wars. May not be good for new players IDK.
Adding transporters/portals is a must IMO. Speed from x to y needs to be improved in some way.


The market cap is so low that we should just try anything and everything - it's onlmost worth saying "scrap it, and take what we have learnt and start a fresh game, now knowing that gaming is fully possible". If we did this, there would probably be no one who would complain except MM who has spent a lot of time on his client, BGB who has worked hard getting coins, and wirra..

Huntercoin 2.0 lol
The guys that control 75% of game would also hurt. My theory is they are like big whales on exchanges. Get most of coin cheap as possible then pump and dump.
If game becomes popular again or pump by them makes it popular again.

thanks for the input.

I'm mostly leaning towards increasing general cost considerably atm.
This will lower bot to human ratio, and make pvp worthwhile.

Very simple to add as well... and no changes necessary for mm client, as a bonus.

Snailbrain

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Re: - What I would do -
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 06:00:49 PM »
updated OP