Author Topic: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15  (Read 8866 times)

Snailbrain

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Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:48:35 PM »
We should attempt this change ASAP, and in the mean time discuss the other changes (coins in crown etc). We can roll this out right away for hardfork in 2 weeks.

1. Increase General Cost to 200 HUCs.
2. Increase Carrying Capacity to 2000 HUCs
3. Reduce Heart Spawn Rate to 1 in 500 Blocks.
4. All coins on Generals/Hunters (including fee) at disaster go into the lost coins pot. These will be released at some later time with an update (e.g. NPCs and coins in crown)
5. Reduce Explosion Range for Generals to 1 square radius.
6. Remove Hearts at Disaster.
7. If stay in spawn area for 30 blocks, you die but coins are returned to your wallet.

see this thread - although i've tried to add some of the basics below -- http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,712.msg2570.html#msg2570

The game is in a "not so good" state.

1000 Generals on the map consists of 700 Wirra Bot, 300 BGB Bot, and possible 1 other person.
It is dominated by (semi) automated bots, and it is only possible for normal players with limited time to harvest the edge harvest areas (negligible amount of coins, and would be less with more players).
These players are continuing to bank 100% of the coins each day and have been for several months. This is not good for distribution. It is not really their fault, in fact it's an excellent learning experience.

I believe the game needs a drastic change into the way it operates - which is to restrict the ability of 1 "bot master" to control significant amount of Generals on the map.

There are around 1000 generals at a value of 10,000 HUCs, which is also probably not co-incidental that it is the approximate amount of coins which can spawn on the map each day, and also the amount of time a disaster can happen after the last disaster. They don't want to "risk" losing more.
By raising the cost of a general to 200 HUCs this will reduce the amount of generals these players can control. 50 Generals would be the same value as the current 1000 generals. Although I expect them to take some risk and probably make a bit more.
This should allow humans to compete on the map, make PvP worthwhile, and change the direction of the game - which is going no where.
Of course the game is more expensive, but it's not working as it is. Currently there is very low risk very low reward. The changes could be described as, High Risk High Reward.

PvP can be the primary Focus of getting coins in the game. Something which, atm, Bots are not good at.

Of course this is not a end all fix, but imo, this is the correct way to go.

Due to the increase in cost, the carrying capacity should be increased. I'd say 2000 (probably wouldn't matter if it was infinite at this stage).

Hearts need a significant reduction in spawn rate - they will be an ultra rare "item". Currently the sides of the map are dominated by standard hunters of which have been spawned by Generals waiting in the central areas for that specific purpose. Standard Hunters would make the game sort of unplayable if the same issue arose (they do now, but would be more so with the increase cost per general).

The Crown was designed to be the ultimate sought after item in the game, but is now pretty much useless.
Another Issue is when a disaster happens, Disaster bots rush the map to pickup the dropped coins, these coins can sort of pay for the Bots generals until the next disaster. Although I think it would be less of an issue, as their generals coming back from the far reaches will be valuable targets - and unless they are controlled intelligently, they will be at a high risk.
To solve 2 issues, we suggested in a previous thread that the coins on the map go "into" the crown. Forcing the crown to be banked ASAP by anyone who gets it.


---

There are many great ideas and things out there, but all require significant time and testing. I suggest we make the 3 main changes above effective immediately with a hard fork, and then start working/discussing all the other more complex RPG style elements later.

The change cannot cause any worse effect on Huntercoin atm - imo, only positive effects. Even so, if you do not like the change after a couple of months then it can be put back.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:18:31 PM by Snailbrain »

domob

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2015, 07:31:47 AM »
I agree here.  Snailbrain is probably right that this will significantly reduce the number of generals controlling the board.  This could, indeed, make it easier for a casual player to try attack the dominators.  While my belief is still that higher general cost is deterring for new players (they have to pay 200 HUC and need a lot of time to recollect this amount), I think we should give it a try.  After all, 200 HUC is not too much in terms of BTC or fiat anymore.

Putting coins (the 0.25 HUC crown bonus and the coins the crown holder collects) into the crown is also a very good next step.  I'll give it a stab at coding to see how much work it really is.  Probably not too much.

What about this suggestion:  Instead of putting the disaster coins into the crown (or do it 50%-50%), just put them to the "lost coins" amount for now?  Those coins are then simply gone, which prevents the dominator / a bot master from collecting too much HUC after a disaster.  This may help both the market price and to prevent very unequal coin distribution.  The game tracks the amount of coins "destroyed" this way, so we are free to put them back on the map later with some kind of change in the future.  (NPC, random placement in spawn areas, whatever.)  This would be a change that should be also quick to code for me.
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Mithril Man

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2015, 09:53:30 AM »
domob just posted what i wanted to say:

- 200HUC is deterring new players to join
- disaster coins doesn't have to go to crown at this stage, agree on putting them on the lost coin (i suppose that's the bag i was talking about). It would be better to distribuite some on the map, but maybe this is a time consuming thing to do maybe, but it would help a lot recovering part of the general cost. Anyway i think that removing disaster coin from the map should be mandatory, because given that this changes would impact very much (and i suspect players will be ~ 0), we need to prevent all the coins going to a pocket (if i can't stay 24/7 on, but neither half of that time, i couldn't compete to take the crown because i can't generate my hunters and go hunting for it, it would take hours to go middle and meanwhile the crow will be already banked, with ALL the coins


if you want to go on the 200huc general way, then we must preserve player investment, so we should at least extend the safe period after a disaster (instead of a day, set it to 4 or 5) to give a way to everyone to collect some coin to get back some of the general value, while at the same time entice who want to fight (even if PVP will be bad without a way to reach fast points, so i don't think pvp will get a burst). (you forget to edit  the explosion range to 1?).
i would say that the "destruct at spawn give your coins back" (i'm sure i talked about this months ago :D) could be a way to save coins, but if you are in the middle of the fight, going back would take again hours and since he should trigger the destruct once he is on spawn zone it would be a problem, so i think we should reimplement the "destruct after 30 blocks on spawn zone", maybe rising it to 60 (30 mins) so that we don't risk that a player forget to move his newly created hunter, but change it so that coins go to the address of the player, than it would be ok.
This way the rule would be "Recover coins after 30(60?) blocks"

« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 09:57:50 AM by Mithril Man »
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redbeans2012

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 05:45:28 PM »
I agree with Domob to scoop up coins and put them in lost coins is good idea.   If you can put some in crown thats fine to but then the crown has to be worked so that guy cant get it after disaster and easily bank it.  So if crown is to much of a pain right now ,just put them all into the lost coins category.   Adding some deflation to the market will probably be a good thing, if the price starts rising because of it, it will give more interest to the coin.

Just this simple change in itself (combined with a carrying limit) will have a huge effect on how many players the guy in the center chooses to have.  At least he has a risk now. Hearts should also be reset after disaster because they are used to totally shut down the board more than anything.

Looks like putting the general up to 250 is going to happen, personally I think it will discourage the little guy even more.   I've been one of the most active players in the last few months and I'm saying that the main problem with the game is that it is just slow and most dont have time to hold the board or take 10 hours to plan an attack.  The people the do hold it just go pick up where they left off after disaster happens.   So yes I do not feel the actual problem is being addressed with the forcing of pvp.

MM and BGB and wiggi have other interesting ideas but I think there are the big ones that need to be address before the little pvp things.  Actually being able to recoup your initial investment in spawn area or whatever seems like it would be critical. (if this pvp thing is pushed)

edit to add:  I should add that it being a pain in the ass to get started is another thing but that is being worked on and if chopping the blockchain like snail suggests is possible then that would be awesome.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:07:28 AM by redbeans2012 »

Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 01:31:09 PM »
4. All coins at disaster go into the lost coins pot. These will be released at some later time with an update (e.g. NPCs)

---

Do we reduce general destruction range to 1 square radius? (as per mm suggestions)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:09:36 PM by Snailbrain »

Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 02:14:28 PM »
domob just posted what i wanted to say:

- 200HUC is deterring new players to join
- disaster coins doesn't have to go to crown at this stage, agree on putting them on the lost coin (i suppose that's the bag i was talking about). It would be better to distribuite some on the map, but maybe this is a time consuming thing to do maybe, but it would help a lot recovering part of the general cost. Anyway i think that removing disaster coin from the map should be mandatory, because given that this changes would impact very much (and i suspect players will be ~ 0), we need to prevent all the coins going to a pocket (if i can't stay 24/7 on, but neither half of that time, i couldn't compete to take the crown because i can't generate my hunters and go hunting for it, it would take hours to go middle and meanwhile the crow will be already banked, with ALL the coins


if you want to go on the 200huc general way, then we must preserve player investment, so we should at least extend the safe period after a disaster (instead of a day, set it to 4 or 5) to give a way to everyone to collect some coin to get back some of the general value, while at the same time entice who want to fight (even if PVP will be bad without a way to reach fast points, so i don't think pvp will get a burst). (you forget to edit  the explosion range to 1?).
i would say that the "destruct at spawn give your coins back" (i'm sure i talked about this months ago :D) could be a way to save coins, but if you are in the middle of the fight, going back would take again hours and since he should trigger the destruct once he is on spawn zone it would be a problem, so i think we should reimplement the "destruct after 30 blocks on spawn zone", maybe rising it to 60 (30 mins) so that we don't risk that a player forget to move his newly created hunter, but change it so that coins go to the address of the player, than it would be ok.
This way the rule would be "Recover coins after 30(60?) blocks"

sorry missed this post..

i've addded 1 radius destruct.

we can't add 5 days disaster because bot master will create 10000 generals then recycle before the last day with no worry. The reason for price increase is so they can't create more than X generals at any one time.

Yes, good idea about adding back death after 30 blocks and then giving coins back.
If not a big job domob, add that, otherwise leave till next one? -- the other updates should just be trivial, although not sure how simple (time) for destruct on spawn spot.
would also need to make sure it's not exploitable/game breakable in anyway -- (e.g. things like moving with coins but destruct triggers when land on bank)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:50:13 PM by Snailbrain »

wiggi

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 07:18:52 PM »
We should attempt this change with immediate effect, and in the mean time discuss the other changes (coins in crown etc). We can roll this out right away for hardfork in 2 weeks.

1. Increase General Cost to 200 HUCs.
2. Increase Carrying Capacity to 2000 HUCs
3. Reduce Heart Spawn Rate to 1 in 500 Blocks.
1. to 3. would be an improvement.


4. All coins at disaster go into the lost coins pot. These will be released at some later time with an update (e.g. NPCs and coins in crown)

With the 1-step name registration and increased general cost, it would be once again possible and perhaps even fun(*) to play the game after disasters. But of course not if the coins are removed. Only putting all disaster coins into the crown would be worse, because then you will get the coins if and only if you control the map.

Putting all coins from the big area around the center (xy=100,100 to xy=400,400) in the lost coins pot would be ok though.


(*) in case of fun the game need more disasters   ;D

Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 10:24:55 PM »
Domob, do you think it's easy for you to also remove all hearts at disaster to?

as well as the other 4 updates?

BGB

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 01:38:56 AM »
Are we thinking about block 575,000 or more like 600,000?

domob

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 06:41:22 AM »
Domob, do you think it's easy for you to also remove all hearts at disaster to?

as well as the other 4 updates?
Yes, removing all hearts at disaster is trivial.  I hope that I'll have some time to work on Huntercoin over the weekend, so I'll give all those things a try.  Is the list in the OP more or less what everyone agrees to, and what I should work on?
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Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 10:23:38 AM »
<you hear multiple voices from the back of the room> -- "yes go for it"




Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 10:28:52 AM »
Are we thinking about block 575,000 or more like 600,000?

I'm waiting for f2pool to reply to make sure they can update in the time period..

if they can update with a 48 hour warning like last time, then 575,000?
otherwise 580,000 ?


Mithril Man

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 12:48:03 PM »
i think

- Put back "death in 30 blocks" if in bank area, but when die you bank the drop coins..

should be placed into this fork
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domob

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 04:37:46 PM »
i think

- Put back "death in 30 blocks" if in bank area, but when die you bank the drop coins..

should be placed into this fork
Sounds fine.  How much (or everything) of the general cost should be refunded?  Before the last fork, dying in the spawn area dropped the full amount (without death tax) - presumably so that miners have no special incentive to ignore transactions moving the player out of spawn.  Also, should the "banking" tax of 10% be applied, or the full amount be refunded in its entirety?
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Snailbrain

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Re: Proposal for Hardfork - 03/Feb/15
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 07:08:05 PM »
as it will be in game state rules, there probably is no reason to give miners the money, as they don't need to process a tx?

there is incentive for them to move out of spawn as there is the minimum 0.01?