Poll

Remove/Change Disaster?

No, leave disaster as it is now - or change frequency
2 (40%)
Yes! use it just to reset the crown, remove hunters from the map but refund 200 hucs to players
3 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Disaster Not Required ?  (Read 8899 times)

Snailbrain

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Disaster Not Required ?
« on: February 23, 2015, 03:14:35 AM »
Thinking out loud -

It's probable that we can remove Disaster after this update, and maybe we should.. or at least change it to do something else (i.e. not kill everyone) - can think of any ideas?

Blockers and large numbers of automated players will be prime easy targets for harvesting PvP Coins.

Obviously - The difficulty to get coins with disaster will actually be quite hard/risky with the change... maybe even scaring people from creating more than a handful of hunters. There may also not be enough people to kill.. (although then you should be able to pickup coins in peace).


A Dominator who creates many generals (if no disaster) will be free money unless they adapt to PvP much faster.

I think Disaster in it's current form won't be necessary and will be a hindrance. I think MM or someone else mentioned this also.

1 problem is - when bots eventually become proficient at PvP, we will end up with the same situation of total domination through sheer numbers....

maybe by then we will have made Hunercoin PvP complex enough to combat that..

If disaster was removed -
the price per general could go higher (more worthwhile to PvP)
and/or Carry Capacity could be halved.. will try to explain why later

or
Disaster Probability could be much lower and max disaster time could be increased.

Without disaster, the Crown in it's current form can be camped in a safe base (as it used to be).
The Disaster could still cause the crown to reset..

lets see what happens after the hard fork :)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:31:23 AM by Snailbrain »

Mithril Man

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 09:31:25 AM »
yes it was me asking for disaster to be removed with current changes.
I imagine that this fork wouldn't be much succesfull because would be too risky to create generals after didsaster safe time (so after 1 day the disaster trigger) and i could imagine that after disaster many bots would go out to collect uncollected coins, then turn back to recycle before safe time ends or if enemy approach and only people who can spend whole day in front of the pc would try to pick up the coin

removing disaster is mandatory with current costs, imo.

an idea to reset crown and apply disaster in a different way, would be that disaster would just reset the crown, destroying all characeters in a range of... 10x10 or something like this, around the crown holder and putting half of coins dropped by the big explosion, to go to the crown (or all coins dropped by explosion, with such small scale disaster this sounds fine)

i think that having barrage isn't a big issue now, since one human player could just try to kill one and go away with the loot, managing lot of hunters would be risky for owners, anyway the introduction of NPC in the future would leverage this problem too, or maybe place some kind of poisonouse clouds in specific areas like where barriage happens, so if an hunter stays there for too long he dies, this would give people to have time to go through but no camp, and if barriage moves is fine because they would be more vulnerable
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Mithril Man

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 01:31:52 PM »
ok, keeping on discuss about modification

atm things are going as i thought, bots or ppl with time are harvesting and i suppose soon some of them will go back recycling, leaving wira/chinese group the whole map to collect middle, etc... leading even to a bigger ownership of the map

this is caused mainly because of disaster, that cause "casual player" (me too) to be too scared because the ROI would be too risky and uncertain
and for pvp, teleports are a must because this could be the only way to have some action with current costs


Actually i think disaster should be completly removed as first step (and pretty urgent) and as second thing, teleports should be added, but at least without disaster, humans can go around without being too freigthened about being killed without chance to fight

if you are worried about barriage, i'm not. as a human player i'm pretty sure that most of the players would be satisfied having the chance to kill one and go back (200 huc is a lot for a fight) and to kill one, with current 1x attack range, you have a nice chance to succeed even if enemies are many (at least way more than before) and fights will be funnier, even because without many hearted hunters, the change seeing enemies on opposite corners is very low so fight with double color would be harder to see (except in the middle)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 01:33:50 PM by Mithril Man »
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Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 02:40:05 PM »
ok, keeping on discuss about modification

atm things are going as i thought, bots or ppl with time are harvesting and i suppose soon some of them will go back recycling, leaving wira/chinese group the whole map to collect middle, etc... leading even to a bigger ownership of the map

this is caused mainly because of disaster, that cause "casual player" (me too) to be too scared because the ROI would be too risky and uncertain
and for pvp, teleports are a must because this could be the only way to have some action with current costs


Actually i think disaster should be completly removed as first step (and pretty urgent) and as second thing, teleports should be added, but at least without disaster, humans can go around without being too freigthened about being killed without chance to fight

if you are worried about barriage, i'm not. as a human player i'm pretty sure that most of the players would be satisfied having the chance to kill one and go back (200 huc is a lot for a fight) and to kill one, with current 1x attack range, you have a nice chance to succeed even if enemies are many (at least way more than before) and fights will be funnier, even because without many hearted hunters, the change seeing enemies on opposite corners is very low so fight with double color would be harder to see (except in the middle)

prsonally i think the game is working better than ever atm.. i think a couple of hours after disaster is no time to see what is happening though.

but atm.. i'm loving it :)

if someone wants to try to take and control the middle great.. i'm waiting for them to return..

best waiting a couple more disasters before you come to any conclusions atm

the game is currently fair ...

no one can control thousands + (100 max?) and they are easy targets :)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 02:41:53 PM by Snailbrain »

Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 02:56:16 PM »
although a bit early..

i'd say that we should have stuck to my original 250 cost per general, or even 500.

Not sure about Disaster thing yet, though - maybe the map will become sparsely populated after a couple of days (before the next disaster) and be high risk but high reward.

agree with some teleporter type stuff.. need to come to some conclusion about this

we need to wait at least 2 months before we do a another hardfork though (unless something is seriously broken) - it wasn't as easy to roll it out as the previous times.

Mithril Man

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 03:59:33 PM »
my suspect is that without removing disaster, you'll see people play the safe day, then watch other own the map, that's really the last think we need (all coin to 1 person/group)
we need to rise the player base before doing changes to costs, etc... but if we scare people it wouldn't be possible (and having a chance to have a disaster after an investment of 200 huc)

200 of cost per se, at actual huc/btc value, is not a problem the problem is losing that (for every player you control) after 1 day, or 2, while in the meantile you collected nuts and didn't had a chance to pvp because of distance
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Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 04:16:35 PM »
my suspect is that without removing disaster, you'll see people play the safe day, then watch other own the map, that's really the last think we need (all coin to 1 person/group)
we need to rise the player base before doing changes to costs, etc... but if we scare people it wouldn't be possible (and having a chance to have a disaster after an investment of 200 huc)

200 of cost per se, at actual huc/btc value, is not a problem the problem is losing that (for every player you control) after 1 day, or 2, while in the meantile you collected nuts and didn't had a chance to pvp because of distance

yep i can see where you are coming from, i think we need to see what happens first.. we may find that dominator's will play with a lot less after safe day also -- as not only will they have more to lose than a human, they also cannot pickup their coins with a disaster rush..

think we need to wait a few weeks to see what happens - it's still safe period from that first disaster.

I'm 100% certain though that this is currently much better than it was.. 1000x more. Mainly because killing anyone is good coins :D

some off topic ish mind dumps--

i'm still wondering about reducing the destruct radius - i can see dominators travelling in groups, and it's much harder to cause damage with 1 destruct radius. You basically need more than them.. you could say this is the same issue with 2 destruct radius as they can split up more.. but i think not as easy as it sounds.                     

sort of related and something to think about:
i'm thinking we can maybe even start to think about -- Reds have 2 destruct radius but only 500 carry capacity, blue 1 destruct radius but 2000 carry capacity,  and other similar changes green/yellow
but need to think about dominator formations etc ..

when we talked about Disaster doing something other than kill everyone :
e.g. reset crown...
it could - poison everyone still, but instead of death, it changes your colour..




Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 04:25:54 PM »
we need to wait for at least 3 disasters before we start to tweak imo.. the more the better

then we can see how it's played and what needs to be done.

Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 04:27:33 PM »


when we talked about Disaster doing something other than kill everyone :
e.g. reset crown...
it could - poison everyone still, but instead of death, it changes your colour..


also teleport everyone to random location on the map.

Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 04:42:18 PM »
probably possible but more complicated..

you actually don't just teleport - you become another player on the map (you swap places with them and have the coins they were holding)..
it would be good if you also took their names but i suspect this may be a lot more complicated...
this may be exploitable in some way - such as - creating many generals before a disaster to set others back at the start, but you are propeled to the central areas of the map :D
so - wouldn't work in that basic form..

i think colour changes is a good one though -  not sure if i heard that somewhere else :)

redbeans2012

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 05:30:31 PM »
ok, keeping on discuss about modification

atm things are going as i thought, bots or ppl with time are harvesting and i suppose soon some of them will go back recycling, leaving wira/chinese group the whole map to collect middle, etc... leading even to a bigger ownership of the map

this is caused mainly because of disaster, that cause "casual player" (me too) to be too scared because the ROI would be too risky and uncertain
and for pvp, teleports are a must because this could be the only way to have some action with current costs


Actually i think disaster should be completly removed as first step (and pretty urgent) and as second thing, teleports should be added, but at least without disaster, humans can go around without being too freigthened about being killed without chance to fight

if you are worried about barriage, i'm not. as a human player i'm pretty sure that most of the players would be satisfied having the chance to kill one and go back (200 huc is a lot for a fight) and to kill one, with current 1x attack range, you have a nice chance to succeed even if enemies are many (at least way more than before) and fights will be funnier, even because without many hearted hunters, the change seeing enemies on opposite corners is very low so fight with double color would be harder to see (except in the middle)

I pretty much predicted that this would be the situation after these changes.

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,712.msg2771.html#msg2771

But I was labeled a troll.

Even though I really like the disaster and I feel that not dropping the coins solved any issues I had with it.  MM is correct that it needs to be taken away in order for things to be more balanced.  I will not spend 200 HUC or more to go fight someone halfway across the board (and probably lose) AND possibly lose it all in a random disaster.

As I posted many times the people with the most time will dominate the game no matter what.  The main barrier to people playing (besides the download thing) is that its just too slow.  Teleports are a great way to speed things up and should be talked about alot more.

There is nothing that makes me want to buy 200 HUC right now and go chase down a Wira in hopes of getting 200 more.  To me the risk is alot higher than the reward.  If it was more general cost it would be even more of a deterrent. 

About destruct radius.  I had a hard enough time fighting people even with the Big destruct radius, mainly because you never know which block is going to pick up your destruct.  So many times I've destructed and killed noone.   1 block destruct makes it even harder.  This issue is the least of my huntercoin worries though.  Although Snails idea of giving each color different strengths and weaknesses is a very interesting concept and should be talked about more.

Upping the price of generals isn't solving any problems really, yes it will probably give a nice short term boost to the value of HUC, (as will taking them away after diaster) but making it cost more to play for average joe is more of a deterrent than anything.

I still think it was a mistake to uproot the semi stable foundation of HUC and go this route and I predict another ho hum year for HUC unless Snail starts listening to  the players.


wiggi

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 05:39:05 PM »
my suspect is that without removing disaster, you'll see people play the safe day, then watch

If the map becomes even more empty than now, then it would be possible to regularly find 6-7 hour time windows where you can't be attacked because distances between hunters are so large. This would give a single player (on an unreliable node that might stop syncing/need to be restarted at any time) a chance to go to center and back. But it still takes too much time to be fun gameplay.

wiggi

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 06:42:53 PM »

About destruct radius.  I had a hard enough time fighting people even with the Big destruct radius, mainly because you never know which block is going to pick up your destruct.  So many times I've destructed and killed noone.   1 block destruct makes it even harder. 

I second that. Smaller destruct radius penalizes manual play, crappy hardware+connection, and probably playing on the unity engine light wallet (if its server ever get overcrowded). This is another reason why the game needs toggleable autodestruct on the network level, so that the (auto)destruct command could be sent 1 turn "too early" and still kill the enemy.

Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 06:44:56 PM »
ok, keeping on discuss about modification

atm things are going as i thought, bots or ppl with time are harvesting and i suppose soon some of them will go back recycling, leaving wira/chinese group the whole map to collect middle, etc... leading even to a bigger ownership of the map

this is caused mainly because of disaster, that cause "casual player" (me too) to be too scared because the ROI would be too risky and uncertain
and for pvp, teleports are a must because this could be the only way to have some action with current costs


Actually i think disaster should be completly removed as first step (and pretty urgent) and as second thing, teleports should be added, but at least without disaster, humans can go around without being too freigthened about being killed without chance to fight

if you are worried about barriage, i'm not. as a human player i'm pretty sure that most of the players would be satisfied having the chance to kill one and go back (200 huc is a lot for a fight) and to kill one, with current 1x attack range, you have a nice chance to succeed even if enemies are many (at least way more than before) and fights will be funnier, even because without many hearted hunters, the change seeing enemies on opposite corners is very low so fight with double color would be harder to see (except in the middle)

I pretty much predicted that this would be the situation after these changes.

http://forum.huntercoin.org/index.php/topic,712.msg2771.html#msg2771

But I was labeled a troll.

Even though I really like the disaster and I feel that not dropping the coins solved any issues I had with it.  MM is correct that it needs to be taken away in order for things to be more balanced.  I will not spend 200 HUC or more to go fight someone halfway across the board (and probably lose) AND possibly lose it all in a random disaster.

As I posted many times the people with the most time will dominate the game no matter what.  The main barrier to people playing (besides the download thing) is that its just too slow.  Teleports are a great way to speed things up and should be talked about alot more.

There is nothing that makes me want to buy 200 HUC right now and go chase down a Wira in hopes of getting 200 more.  To me the risk is alot higher than the reward.  If it was more general cost it would be even more of a deterrent. 

About destruct radius.  I had a hard enough time fighting people even with the Big destruct radius, mainly because you never know which block is going to pick up your destruct.  So many times I've destructed and killed noone.   1 block destruct makes it even harder.  This issue is the least of my huntercoin worries though.  Although Snails idea of giving each color different strengths and weaknesses is a very interesting concept and should be talked about more.

Upping the price of generals isn't solving any problems really, yes it will probably give a nice short term boost to the value of HUC, (as will taking them away after diaster) but making it cost more to play for average joe is more of a deterrent than anything.

I still think it was a mistake to uproot the semi stable foundation of HUC and go this route and I predict another ho hum year for HUC unless Snail starts listening to  the players.

predicted what redbeans?????

The prediction and reasoning was to stop one person controlling 1000 generals on the map...
this has worked..
I personally think if disaster is removed, the cost of hunters should increase to 500 HUCs.

Quote
Upping the price of generals isn't solving any problems really, yes it will probably give a nice short term boost to the value of HUC, (as will taking them away after diaster) but making it cost more to play for average joe is more of a deterrent than anything.

I still think it was a mistake to uproot the semi stable foundation of HUC and go this route and I predict another ho hum year for HUC unless Snail starts listening to  the players.

it's pretty much common sense that the cost per general was too low. doesn't matter if you or anyone else says so, that is fact.

1 person cannot control 1000s of generals when a normal player can only control 10-20 -- whether that be that they are easy targets and worth killing (increase general cost) or/and there is a risk they will lose all those players with a disaster. If the game was made much more complicated with random events and other things happened that make it difficult for bots to adapt, then this would also work, but that is not easy.

i agree with the destruct radius being reduced to 1 (mm idea btw), it does make it easier to escape, but it also makes it much harder to kill someone, and when the map is sparsely populated this is sort of an issue.

p.s. your insults are trolling - and i do listen and i watch more than you ever have btw - i don't think you actually realize how much time i have spent and spend on this project, and it's not my fault you just can't see with your own eyes what is actually happening, if i'd have not proposed the change, you'd still be making it extremely easy to give all the coins away to the dominator -
and the price of general increase is imo nothing to do with the value of huc increase, the up in value is due to us working on rectifying problems and all the other updates.

would you have preferred the game stayed at 10 hucs and wirra (and bgb) controlled 1000 generals, and you pickaway with your 10 hunters collecting the scraps around the edges while they continue to harvest 99% of coins on the map every day for another few months..
at least now you can fight back :)

The tweaks we need to consider atm are:

1. Remove Disaster - keep in mind that we may then end up with a very populated map, and when Bots become more adapt at PvP, they may dominate through extremely numbers again, as there is no risk of losing players.
2. Consider the 1 destruct radius - should it be 1 or 2?
3. Teleporter Features - i think we need to be careful of this.



my suspect is that without removing disaster, you'll see people play the safe day, then watch

If the map becomes even more empty than now, then it would be possible to regularly find 6-7 hour time windows where you can't be attacked because distances between hunters are so large. This would give a single player (on an unreliable node that might stop syncing/need to be restarted at any time) a chance to go to center and back. But it still takes too much time to be fun gameplay.


agree -


--

I think it's still a bit early for us to see what's happening atm - it will take a few disasters for dominators to adapt their play - no point making plans to change stuff just yet


Snailbrain

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Re: Disaster Not Required ?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 07:11:19 PM »
although i sided with mm regarding the 1 radius destruct --

i'm certain now that this needs to be put back to 2 - it's quite hard to kill someone

edit: although not really really hard :D

I suspect some bots maybe using some sense/avoid tactics - or there is a few human players atm :)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 07:18:20 PM by Snailbrain »